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Damper System Compendium

Discussion in 'Chassis Builds/Pics/Videos' started by Drew, Jun 8, 2017.

  1. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Making this thread to help make a compendium of damper system types, their pros and cons and hopefully guides to making them.

    My hope is that this becomes an easy access thread in order to help people decide on a damper system to suit their builds ahead of time, or give inspiration for their future builds.

    I don't claim to be an expert on these systems, so it would be appreciated if every one chips in with their knowledge and experience.
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Before I start, I just wanted to say I'm using images sourced from google and from the images people have posted here. All credit goes to those whom ever created their images.... And for whatever reason, I can't seem to upload images without getting temp ban >.<;
    So I'm posting them from imgur.


    Stock Damper Setup.

    [​IMG]
    Pros:
    *Cheapest option compared to other damper setups.
    *Easy to assemble and adjust.
    *Easy to maintain.

    Cons:
    *Screws tend to get bent easily.
    *Probably the least effective of all damper set ups. *edit: I don't say "not effective", just likely the least effective in comparison between other damper setups.*


    Body Dampers.

    Basic:

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Simple and easy to make.
    *Requires less technical abilities to set up compared to other body dampers.
    *A solid entry way build into body damper setups.
    *Probably the cheapest option of setting up body damper.

    Cons:
    *Can cause the screws to bend easily by being extremely high mounted.
    *Battery management could be a slight awkward if you don't take it into account early in the build.
    *Higher center of gravity.



    Standard and up (both front mounted and rear mounted types):

    [​IMG]

    Front Mounted:

    Pros:
    *The second most mainstream method after rear mounted. Again, lots of information and different methods of construction available.
    *Same pros as the rear mounted.

    Cons:
    *Same as rear mounted, with the extra addition of balancing. These builds can be prone to being nose heavy in the air which causes more front end bounce on landing. *edit: My experience is videos only, but other people with experience say this is not always the case, so it's subjective, but I'll leave it as a potential con for now.*

    Rear Mounted:

    Pros:
    *Mainstream method of body damper setup, so there's a lot of information available to build these with different methods.
    *Usually mounted much lower than the simple body damper, it's practically level with or just below the top of the main chassis. This means less bent screws and lower center of gravity. *edit: in comparison with the simple body damper*
    *Can be built with a 2 stage damper setup.

    Cons:
    *A little more technical knowledge in order to fit the damper frame based on chassis (cutting to shape).
    *A touch more expensive than stock damper method, more so if you using Carbon over stock FRP.





    Forcelabs (FL) System.

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *It's a form of rear mounted damper which implements brake, slam damper and pivot damper all in one.
    *A very versatile build that better helps the car keep to its lane after jumps. *edit: changed from stability, if anyone has more experience to add to this, let me know.*

    Cons:
    *Much more technical to build compared to the mainstream body dampers.
    *Moves center of gravity towards the rear which can potentially lead to some balancing issues. Can also cause issues with mounting rear dampers. *edit: changed front damper recommendation to balance issues.*




    Gri Sys Full body damper.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *This full body damper system also adds the lower rollers and brakes into the build.
    *A great option for going beyond the mainstream dampers.
    *Lowest center of gravity without going into suspension damper builds.

    Cons:
    *Although looking simple, it's a little technical to build as you need to cut parts to fit the chassis
    and to mount.
    *Mounting relies on 2 screws for the entire damper system making a obvious stress point.
    *Balancing could be an issue. Unlike most damper builds which have a static brake, this one has a break built in, so as the damper goes up, the brake goes down and comes in contact with the ground.
    Therefore anything causing dampers to actuate is also causing braking, be it a jump, hitting the wall going into a corner or hitting a bump in the track joints. This is probably the achilles heel to the hole build.

    (These pros/cons are subjective to what can be seen in videos. But I believe what I've written is not far off the mark, unless some one has experience and wants to correct me. I will keep this as is for now.)



    Simple Rear Mounted Damper.

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Cheap and easy rear slam damper.
    *Great for beginners wanting to get into damper systems.
    *Can be paired with pretty much all other damper builds.
    *Could also be front mounted if your happy to work out how to balance the rest of the car.

    Cons:
    *Really needs to work in conjunction with another damper system to be effective.
    Only having this mounted might help, but could potentially throw off balancing. *edit: change from will to could.*





    Suspension Dampers
    (Self build projects)

    Simple Internal Suspension.

    [​IMG]


    Pros:
    *Works more like a proper car. Stock dampers may be used to provide extra stability and/or weight.
    *The easiest method of suspension builds.
    *Versatility based on method of building.

    Cons:
    *Depending on construction, can act more like a flex than working vertically which could lead to causing extra stress on screws and center chassis mount point. *edit: could lead to, is subjective and not always the case.*
    *Depending on construction, access to axle gear area can be restricted and need of more deconstruction of car to access.




    F.I.S.S (Full Independent Suspension System).

    [​IMG]


    Pros:
    *Most simulating of a real car suspension.
    *Does not need other dampers if you make a heavier build.

    (tbc....haven't found much information or videos. Will have to go off my experience later.)

    Cons:
    *Depending on construction, can make the car heavy.
    *Also depending on construction, can become expensive. Need a lot of planning ahead of building for parts and build methodology.
    *Highly technical build. Requires a good understanding of both Mini4's and actual car/rc car suspension building. Also how to stabilise the 3 part axle and to stabilise the wheels.
    *Access to internal gear areas is highly restricted and needs to be deconstructed to gain access.
    *Potential for the car to be slower if build is not constructed with precision. *edit: thanks orange, I completely forgot to add this. And yes, it is true, one of the guides I've been following showed this issue and was getting 14-15kmh, but once he corrected it, it was making 29-31kmh*



    Also F.I.S.S with Steering

    [​IMG]


    Pros:
    *As with F.I.S.S build.
    *You are bestowed with the title of "Mini 4WD Machine God" and are worshipped by fellow racers around the world for your truly incredible show of dedication and knowledge!

    Cons:
    *As with F.I.S.S build, Extremely technical due to needing to plan ahead for adapting a method of steering. Although hard to see, in the image above, the steering is provided by the little orange tabs fitted to the wheel mounting and actuated by sliding damper.
    *The most expensive, technical and difficult of builds.




    Horizontal Dampers:

    Sliding Dampers:

    Stock:

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Easy access grade-up part for replacing static stay.
    *Cheap compared to self build method.
    *Less stress on screws used in the sliding mechanism due to design compared to pivot dampers.
    *Aluminium stay less prone to breaking.
    *Can help mitigate any inconsistencies in the track (non flush joints in the track for example.) *edit: added*

    Cons:
    *Aluminium stay more likely to bend and become deformed.
    *Not as versatile as self build.
    *Less stress on screws due to design compared to pivot dampers.




    Self built:

    [​IMG]



    Pros:
    *Self built means you control the weight of the entire assembly.
    *More versatility over stock damper.
    *Less stress on screws used in the sliding mechanism due to design compared to pivot dampers.
    *Good for use when track has digital sections.
    *Can help mitigate any inconsistencies in the track (non flush joints in the track for example.) *edit: added*

    Cons:
    *Potentially not as easy to maintain as tamiya stock option.
    *More expensive due to needing more Carbon/stock FRP to assemble.
    *A little more technical than stock to build. These can be hard to make well. Things have to be measured pretty precisely if you want it to work as intended, if the tolerances aren't close enough, the damper will wiggle forward and backward which effect roller angle (super important in the front) *edit: added extra info*
    *Stays have a potential to break a little easier than the aluminium stay.




    Pivot Damper:

    [​IMG]


    Pros:
    * Viable alternative to sliding damper.
    *Very simple and easy to build.
    *Very versatile for mounting other parts to.
    *A little less cost than the self made sliding damper.
    *Less resistant to actuating compared to sliding dampers. *edit: I've added this as both pro and con due to how tight you make the elastic depends on resistance. I do believe pivot is also less resistant due to the angle of attack compared to sliding damper. It takes less force to collapse the pivot damper than to push the slide, but again subjective to build.*
    *Can help mitigate any inconsistencies in the track (non flush joints in the track for example.) *edit: added*

    Cons:
    *Due to pivot method, mounting needs to be taken into consideration to avoid the rollers interfering with the wheels.
    *The elastic/rubber roller ring used to actuate the pivot damper can be prone to snapping.
    *Most of the stress is transmitted through a single screw causing it to be a high stress component prone to deforming/shearing.
    *Less resistant to actuating compared to sliding dampers. (I put in both pro and con, because it's use dependent).




    I believe this is all for the main category of dampers.
    Each have their own unique characteristics, build management and maintenance.

    I would love if people could give me some info to fill in basic pros and cons to the above categories.
    Also, If you are providing a build guide or showing a more detailed system built on one of these standards, please try to identify which category it is and it's pros/cons.

    Edit: As orange said to me "Never take someone else's word for it until you test yourself. There is no such thing as one way to do something".

    Edit2: Added a few vehicles, might add more over next couple days. (Can't post more videos in this post as limited to 5, there are more related videos further down the thread.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  3. PersonalUser

    PersonalUser Washer

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    Well, I can say a lot of things but I'm not even close to sure if they're right or not but one thing imo is that sliding dampers generally decreases turn speed and is specific for tracks with digital turns. (I think???????)
     
  4. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Updated pros and cons. Please feel free to correct me or to add any extra info that might be missing.
     
  5. Chris Lee Design

    Chris Lee Design Aluminum Lock Nut

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    Stock Damper Setup.

    [​IMG]
    Pros:
    *Cheapest option compared to other damper setups.
    *Easy to assemble and adjust.
    *Easy to maintain.
    *Just as effective as other damper setups
    *Super easy to tune weight.

    Cons:
    *Screws tend to get bent easily.
    *A bit more difficult to find the right weight distribution for effectiveness.
    *Probably the least effective of all damper set ups.
    *Doesn't look as cool


    Standard and up (both front mounted and rear mounted types):

    [​IMG]

    Front Mounted:

    Pros:
    *The second most mainstream method after rear mounted. Again, lots of information and different methods of construction available.
    *Being nose heavy, I notice that even if it tips downward, it does not cause more or less bounce after landing. In fact, I notice the car can recover faster if it has a off landing.

    Cons:
    *Same as rear mounted, with the extra addition of balancing. These builds can be prone to being nose heavy in the air which causes more front end bounce on landing.
    *I don't notice any more cons vs. the rear setup.

    Rear Mounted:

    Pros:
    *Mainstream method of body damper setup, so there's a lot of information available to build these with different methods.
    *Usually mounted much lower that it's practically level with the top of the main chassis. This means less bent screws and lower center of gravity.
    *Can be built with a 2 stage damper setup. (The front can do this as well)

    Cons:
    *A little more technical knowledge in order to fit the damper frame based on chassis (cutting to shape).
    *A touch more expensive than stock damper method, more so if you using Carbon over stock FRP.





    Forcelabs (FL) System.

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *It's a form of rear mounted damper which implements brake, slam damper and pivot damper all in one.
    *Only needed in 5 lane wood track. For 3lane or 5lane plastic track, it's not as effective. The wood track have 3mm thick walls, and are very stout, so most builds in Japan focus on car flex because the walls don't bend as much (something needs to give on impact) The plastic tracks are 2mm, and flex way more so you can get away with the stiff car setups. Sometimes having too much flex on both sides (Track and Car) don't give good results. I never could prove that this setup was better because we don't have access to the wood track. I was able to reach the same lap times on this FL setup, as my other normal setups. The main thing for this is recovery, does it recover faster if it hits the wall? This I'm not sure, hard to test that in the race setting.
    *A very versatile build that offers great stability. I felt like it was slightly less stable, but I can't hard confirm something like this.

    Cons:
    *Much more technical to build compared to the mainstream body dampers.
    *Even being heavier towards the rear, I didn't notice it lifting up during a jump. Heavier batteries can easily counter this if it does happen thou, I wouldn't say you need to have a front damper in order to run this. I think most do because no one has figured out where to attach a rear latern, lol. It's even hard to figure out where to put a rear mass damper depending on your setup.
    *Moves center of gravity towards the rear. So is best paired with a front mounted body damper.



    I can't comment on Masa's system, but maybe Arthur can since he knows the guy. I just remember hearing that this system wasn't effective regarding consistency. It's hard to tell from his videos, he could just be running an atomic tuned motor or something.
    Gri Sys Full body damper.



    Simple Rear Mounted Damper.

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Cheap and easy rear slam damper.
    *Great for beginners wanting to get into damper systems.
    *Can be paired with pretty much all other damper builds.
    *Could also be front mounted if your happy to work out how to balance the rest of the car.
    *Can cut up a car catcher to mount the weight. The common misconception of the tohoku damper is that it needs to hit to be effective. This is not the case, It just needs to absorb the vibration (which is why the car catcher is really good at this) I've proven this on my blue MS (no pic right now) as it never hits the brake bar, it just floats suspended in air and vibrates on impact.

    Cons:
    *Really needs to work in conjunction with another damper system to be effective.
    *Only having this mounted might help, but will throw off balancing. I think it's not that it throws off balancing, but that it can't help with the front bounce being so far away from impact. Having this is super effective, with or without as it helps keep your rear locked down.





    Suspension Dampers
    (Self build projects)

    Simple Internal Suspension.

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Works more like a proper car so no need for body dampers. Sometimes you still need something more, possibly another damper depending on the track. Stock dampers may be used to provide extra stability and/or weight.
    *The easiest method of suspension builds.
    *Usually don't require too many extra parts to create.
    *Versatility based on method of building.
    *Probably the lightest method of constructing a car. I think VS or S2 still beat the MS, if built to be light. I think I saw 93g with batteries on an S2 once. The lightest I've gotten is 115g with batteries so we are close.

    Cons:
    *Limited suspension travel range. You have plenty of room to adjust, as you don't actually need that much travel to be effective. There is a sweet spot imo which this build can offer.
    *Depending on construction, can act more like a flex than working vertically causing extra stress on screws and center chassis mount point. My blue MS has been through 4 races, and like 7 practices, and it's still fine. I've taken bad crashes and ran into a metal pole once. It just depends on the crash, but I think it's pretty durable.
    *Depending on construction, access to axle gear area can be restricted and need of more deconstruction of car to access.




    F.I.S.S (Full Independent Suspension System).

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Most simulating of a real car suspension.
    *Does not need other dampers if you make a heavier build.

    (tbc....haven't found much information or videos. Will have to go off my experience later.)

    Cons:
    *Depending on construction, can make the car heavy.
    *Also depending on construction, can become expensive. Need a lot of planning ahead of building for parts and build methodology.
    *Highly technical build. Requires a good understanding of both Mini4's and actual car/rc car suspension building. Also how to stabilise the 3 part axle and to stabilise the wheels.
    *Access to internal gear areas is highly restricted and needs to be deconstructed to gain access.
    *My theory is because of the extra parts (weight + friction) will make this slower than a car that is built without suspension. (Hard to test this for definite answer)


    Horizontal Dampers:

    Sliding Dampers:

    Stock:

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Easy access grade-up part for replacing static stay.
    *Cheap compared to self build method.
    *Aluminium stay less prone to breaking.

    Cons:
    *Aluminium stay more likely to bend and become deformed.
    *Slightly more maintenance needed compared to self made. Maintenance is the same for both imo.
    *Not as versatile as self build.
    *Less stress on screws due to design compared to pivot dampers.




    Self built:

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    *Self built means you control the weight of the entire assembly.
    *Easier access to parts for maintenance. In my experience, they are all a pain in the ass lol, especially self made ones and how they are mounted.
    *More versatility over stock damper. They all work the same imo, the point of the sliding damper is just to absorb the shock from the digital turn so it doesn't break anything on your car. Your car can run through the digital turn fine with out, but after repeated runs, something will stress crack/break. It doesn't even need much action from the sliding damper either, just a few mm or dampening is all you need.
    *Less stress on screws due to design compared to pivot dampers.
    *Good for use when track has digital sections. I run my blue MS with sliding dampers on every track, and it always does well, sometimes better because when there are track deformities (when the track pieces connect but aren't flush) my sliding damper car will handle it better and self correct before the jump. My non sliding damper car will just jump crooked and piss me off, lol.

    Cons:
    *More expensive due to needing more Carbon/stock FRP to assemble.
    *A little more technical than stock to build. These can be hard to make well. Things have to be measured pretty precisely if you want it to work as intended, if the tolerances aren't close enough, the damper will wiggle forward and backward which effect roller angle (super important in the front)
    *Stays have a potential to break a little easier than the aluminium stay.
    *Possibly slows down car a fraction on normal corner sections. I feel like they are faster in certain situations. If my car is landing real deep into a turn, the sliding dampers have a slingshot effect and my car shoots through the turn faster than my non sliding damper car. This is minimal thou, as my lap times are about the same and really depends on the track and what your car is doing.




    Pivot Damper:

    [​IMG]

    Pros:
    * Viable alternative to sliding damper. 2 separate things, I don't believe I've seen anyone run pivot in digital, usually see cars with pivot style (AT bumper) for non digital tracks. But like most things, you could probably get it to work.
    *Very simple and easy to build.
    *Very versatile for mounting other parts to.
    *A little less cost than the self made sliding damper.
    *Less resistant to actuating compared to sliding dampers. I felt that it was more resistant, but could because of my damper build.
    *Better over static stay for digital sections.

    Cons:
    *Due to pivot method, mounting needs to be taken into consideration to avoid the rollers interfering with the wheels.
    *The elastic/rubber roller ring used to actuate the pivot damper can be prone to snapping.
    *Most of the stress is transmitted through a single screw causing it to be a high stress component prone to deforming/shearing.
    *Less resistant to actuating compared to sliding dampers. (I put in both pro and con, because it's use dependent).
    *Possibly slows down car a fraction on normal corner sections.


    Just some of my opinions, most of these things I've done some style of a measurable test, but I feel always to leave a disclaimer that it's not always the case, and you gotta do your own testing to figure it out. Never take someone else's word for it until you test yourself. There is no such thing as one way to do something. Especially come race day, and you bring your car which you've built by the book to be the fastest...then someone else smokes you, and it all goes out the window. haha.
     
  6. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Thanks orange, I'll go through and change some of it, but I still think some of the points are valid. I've expanded on some of the points I decided to keep.

    Edit: Orange, do you think you could reduce the size of your post now please, so that others don't think all the info has been double posted, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  7. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Can't add more videos to main post. Again, all credit to their creators.

    Here is a simple build video for making a body damper. There is more methods of building them than just this, but it should help anyone looking to build their first body damper.




    Gri Sys example video: by
    masa-mini4wd
    @masamini4

    [​IMG]

    And a special treat, I found the video of the F.I.S.S with steering showing it actually working.





    @M4R let me know if I should remove the gif....it was hard to find any other way to grab it without downloading it and reuploading to YT.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  8. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Here's another suspension system, this time using the MA chassis.



    Also....Non mid-ship chassis suspension!



    And another method of F.I.S.S, glad I found this one again.



    There's one elusive video out there I can't seem to find again. It was a simple suspension similar to the MS simple suspension builds, but it was built on an AR chassis. I haven't seen any other video of this done. If I ever come across it again, I'll most definitely link it here.
     
  9. Chris Lee Design

    Chris Lee Design Aluminum Lock Nut

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    I would like to leave it up, because I don't agree with a lot of what you put. I would like to have it all out there, so people can make an informed decision on their own. It can't be a compendium, if the information isn't correct/complete.
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Fair point.
    :)
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Found it!!!
    AR full suspension and front only suspension:




    Also another option for MS chassis.

     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  12. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Another method of Tohoku Damper:



    Another rear mounted damper option, similar to front/rear body damper:



    And finally an interestingly unique method of rear damper:

     
  13. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    A hammer side damper:



    Also if you look at this video, you'll see a different method to making a pivot damper, but is also a very cool Flex damping AR build:

     
  14. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Taking this from another thread and posting here. Thanks @zerosc
    This is a guide to the FL system. Also, if anyone that can read Japanese could translate to English, it would be super appreciated.


    "12mb PDF version
    http://blackskyresearch.net/mini4wd/roller_folding_damper.2016.12.24.pdf

    During my recent visit to Force Labo, Koike-san (こいけさん at forcelabo) was extremely kind to get me into why everyone there was so fast: VERY SOPHISTICATED ROLLER DAMPERS. All legal.

    Koike-san showed me his car, and gave me the printout with pictures attached here - so much to learn from!

    Check him out on Twitter, (cube_candy03), and to see just how awesome his work is."


    Here's the one I made with scrap frp following the above build log.
    20170724_190512.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
    zerosc likes this.
  15. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    This post is mine. Had a couple frp pieces I'd cut and was using as a brace for a different build.

    [​IMG]


    I was thinking what I could do with these and I figured I'd try make them into a sliding damper. Here's the idea below.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It works....not amazingly, but I can throw it on a scrap car.
     
  16. warwick

    warwick Spacer

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    Quick question, do the FL system need somekind weigthed damper block?

    Most of video that I found dont use any of it.
     
  17. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    I've seen some that use it and some that don't. I guess it's at your discretion and experimentation.
    But since the whole unit moves, everything becomes it's own damper in a sense, so you probably would only need light weight dampers.
     
  18. warwick

    warwick Spacer

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    cheers mate, thats what I thought too.

    currently, I add medium bowl damper on the middle hole off super X rear stay.

    its surprisingly easy to make and I had just enough scrap frp to build it.

    I still not sure about the AR/MA skidbar in the back, is that necessary?
     
  19. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    I guess it depends on if you want to limit the pivot range while it's flat on the ground.

    Edit:
    Just finished building mine, here's what I got :D

    IMG_20170805_223334.jpg IMG_20170805_223355.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  20. warwick

    warwick Spacer

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    19
    haha Nice,

    this my current setup installed to my Winning Bird VS
    [​IMG]
     
    zerosc likes this.

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