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Leiywens' MS thread (retired thread)

Discussion in 'MS' started by Drew, May 12, 2017.

  1. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Just starting a thread where I can post my adventurous exploits in on the MS chassis.

    The next car I'm going to work on is this:
    [​IMG]


    My plan for this car is a suspension build, perhaps having two different units for both full independent and simple suspension. I also plan on making full pivot damper front and rear. I've yet to decide on the brake system, but leaning towards spring loaded brake system.


    [​IMG]

    So far this my spare MS chassis, I bought the kit for the shell to put on the Evo.I chassis and to use a test bed and tire trimming. As you can see, I'm currently setting it up to test a simple suspension system. It's not finalised yet as I'm still waiting on spare parts, so at the moment it's mostly placeholder until I can switch in the good parts (including the much needed lock nuts).

    I will update this thread as I continue to explore the MS chassis.

    EDIT!!
    Important note, if you are interested in attempting the F.I.S.S, it's best to read through to my thoughts and opinions post. It gives a little extra info on what could be done alternatively or for improving what I already built.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
    Dxn Provisions and Jan F like this.
  2. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    So I was down town doing some shopping the other day and figured I'd drop in a few hardware stores looking for something to make the suspension, I've been trying to think about making full wishbone or a universal joint. I came across these....

    Universal Joint and Shaft Stopper.jpg

    Universal joints and shaft stoppers. Since I don't have the tamiya race restrictions, I don't really need to use full official parts, so I figured these would make for a good starting point. I don't really have the skills or tools to be creating my own wishbones and cups, so these seemed like an ideal solution until I can muster up some cups and bones. I'll also look at getting some official tamiya shaft stoppers once I've got a working model as these stoppers don't seem to take M2 screws (slightly too large tap for the grub screw).

    The wait for the N/T 04 units is killing me, once my mind gets into gear, it refuses to turn off :confused:
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    So here I am again, yesterday talking about my lack of skills and tools. I spent a lot of last night thinking about it and not enough sleeping as always, so went ahead and started the process. After thinking about the universal joint, I figured why not try to make the cups use a grub screw to attach also. Anywho....time for pics:


    1) I started off by picking out 8x 6mm spacer and 4 of my 6 spare MA/MS gear shaft.

    step 1.jpg


    2) Began by starting with the gear shafts. I'm still thinking of what to use for the tiny wire/pin....will walk to the local war gaming club and ask for advice and help I guess.

    step 2.jpg



    3) I then proceeded to drill about half way down in to each spacer to open up the cup end a little.

    Step 3.jpg


    4) I finally found a use for the pin pushing tool I bought to repair my oakley glasses.

    Step 4.jpg


    5)Using the tool, I held the spacer so I could drill a hole in the side of the spacer where the grub will go, and if that fails, it'll give a little hole to get more solder in there!

    step 5.jpg


    6)After drilling the hole in the spacer, I removed it from the tool and finished drilling out the hole.

    step 6.jpg


    7) Then I took the cutting wheel and cut some slots in the end of the spacer I drilled out earlier.

    Step 7.jpg


    8) Before putting the spacers back on the tool and using it as a press to slightly widen the cup to allow a slight more wiggle room for the bone.

    step 8.jpg


    9) Finally finished for the day. Just need to sort out those pins for the bone and tap the grub holes and hopefully, these are all done.

    step 9.jpg

    I know the gear shafts came out fine, but fingers crossed I didn't just waste 6 shiny red spacers! :rolleyes:


    Right now, feeling proud!
    Defiantly Proud.jpg
     
  4. Chris Lee Design

    Chris Lee Design Aluminum Lock Nut

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    Looking good, and I appreciate the engineering.
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    The new parts I've been waiting on have arrived.....well, all except the spring caps which are in another package and the pack of countersunk screws which should have been in this package :(

    PARTS!!!.jpg

    Since this package has the locknuts I've been waiting on, I figure today I'll focus on the test chassis that already has a suspension setup, I'll try to finalise that and get some drop test footage to post, so maybe another post here later.

    While I'm doing that, I'll go over a few images and blogs about the independent suspension to start thinking about how to assemble mine.
     
  6. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    So I setup roughly and recorded a little.



    I'm not entirely happy, but that's because I was being lazy. I haven't secured the rear stay/brake to the chassis and it bounces up and down when impacting. The front also is over extended from the front unit which is also giving a bad characteristic.

    That said, when it lands nice, there is no bounce at all, I think it happened maybe once or twice in the video.
    I'm too lazy to fix this issue on this build because it was just temporary and a first attempt at trying to build suspension.

    For now I want to focus on the full independent system.....so, here are a few more photos from that...

    [​IMG]



    Trying to thicken them with some glue.
    [​IMG]



    Inserting them into gear shaft.
    [​IMG]



    A bit more glue over the heads, waiting to dry and clean.
    [​IMG]



    Just need to trim the pin down.
    [​IMG]



    Aaaaaaand....finished.....I hope.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Just wanted to layout my plan of action.

    I've decided how I'm going to build the full indy, but I want to wait on the parts I ordered for making the pivot damper to begin as the parts I'm likely cut off the stays will be used in building the suspension.

    So for today, I figured I'd do a detailed setup on the easier to make suspension system and hopefully a better drop test video.

    Edit: Massive photo show inc!!!!!
    Please note, read orangebangs' thread here before beginning as the chassis prep is almost identical:
    http://www.mini4wdrace.com/threads/guide-ms-suspension-build-finished.38/


    Preparing parts.....I changed a few things towards the end, so I missed a few items here. But you get the general idea. Important to note that I'm using 8x threaded shafts....4x with the lower thread removed below the nut section.
    0.jpg



    So here's the rear bumper unit, I already cut the stock by this point, so I'm just using the spare set I had set aside for the full indy to demonstrate roughly what to cut. You want to begin with cutting the entire bumper off. The left and right sides I've cut off and saved as they will be used as part of the full indy build.
    1.jpg

    You'll see roughly the areas that have been trimmed down after cutting. Note the green circles, you need to slightly trim inside the tabs and possibly on the outside of the tab, just to allow a little wider gap when slotting to the middle chassis.
    1a.jpg 1b.jpg



    The red lines again showing where to cut. If you've read Orangebangs' thread, it's identical with the addition that you will do both sides of the unit, not just the side closest to the chassis. Please note the tabs in the circle are to be cut off.
    2.jpg


    As you can see here.
    2a.jpg




    Next up is the front bumper. Again, I've entirely cut off the front bumper, saving the left and right sections which will again be used in the full indy build.

    3.jpg


    Please not again the areas that have been cut down in the red squares. In the red circle you'll see I've again cut off the tabs. The green/yellow circle again shows the body slot tabs that require slight trim as you already have done with the rear.
    3a.jpg

    Need these for the full indy build :D
    3b.jpg

    Again the red lines indicate what needs to be cut down, the circle just showing the tabs cut off.
    4.jpg

    The areas that have been cut down. As before with Orangebangs' thread with the back end of the unit also cut down.
    4a.jpg



    Now to prep the middle chassis. Unlike orange, I chose not to cut off the gear cover. The red circle indicates a small plastic stump to be removed from the rear. The green indicate you need to drill the holes a little wider to accept the shafts and wheel bushings. The blue indicates the battery holder flap needs to be cut or it will interfere with the springs/shafts. The battery holder will still clip onto the sides, but not quite as securely as before, it just won't flip up any more, it will come clean off, like the MA chassis.
    5.jpg


    Important to cut off all the poles.
    5a.jpg


    The undershot showing the poles removed (red).....the yellow showing that I couldn't fully cut down these 2 pegs, so I trimmed them to be level with the surrounding raised area. Don't cut anything but the peg in the yellow circle.
    The blue indicates the slot where the bumper units will slot together with the middle chassis, again, the inside needs to be trimmed to allow smoother movement.
    5b.jpg

    A clearer view of the pegs from the yellow circle in previous image. You can use them to mount spring....not that it really matters.
    5c.jpg


    The little frp plate in the middle comes from these 2 stays....
    This should be the last of cutting.....you may find you don't need the little frp pieces, I'll leave that to your discretion.
    6.jpg

    Now to begin assembly.
    Begin by assembling the wheels and gears onto your bumper units.
    If you intend to do the floating gear setup, you should do it now!!!
    7.jpg



    Here you can see how I intend to use the little frp plates.
    8.jpg

    Begin by using the unmodified threaded shaft and putting washer and 3mm spacer. Make 2x for front and 2x for rear units. Also note that If you want your bumper stay to sit higher, you can mount the stay before adding the 3mm spacer.
    9.jpg

    Slip these into the outer most holes where the bumper will be mounted. For this build I'm mounting the stay on the underside.
    10.jpg

    Ooops, missed a washer.
    10a.jpg

    I'm mounting the stay on the underside. Use lock nuts to secure.
    11.jpg

    My underside stay setup, if you want the stay to be higher, switch the position of the stay and washers.
    11a.jpg

    We then use the modified threaded shaft to assemble the inner chassis spring.
    12.jpg 12a.jpg 12b.jpg

    3mm spacer slips perfectly into the hole to stabilise the shafts.
    13.jpg

    Add your washers...
    13a.jpg


    Then the springs to all 4 shafts. At this point, if you want softer suspension, leave off the inner chassis springs.
    13b.jpg

    Now it gets a little fiddly...
    14.jpg

    Insert the bushing and place washer on top.......
    14a.jpg


    Finally add your springs and spring caps! (I'm using washers because I don't have spring caps). And hold them in place again using lock nuts.
    14b.jpg

    You'll notice I changed the setup a little after a bit of thinking....the top springs were meant to keep the shaft pulled up so they wouldn't drag on the floor.....but since the stock threads are secured to the unit, it doesn't need a spring on the top, so I replaced it with a 12mm spacer....of course you could change the size of the spacer and screw the nut down a little further, entirely your choice.
    14c.jpg

    Tighten the screw only to remove the gap between the nut and spring.....make sure the unit is fully pressed when doing this, once released, the spring should sit with just the right tension.
    Do the same to the back....although remove the spring and add spacers instead.....when you do the back nuts, only press the unit up until the gears mesh, if you push it all the way and tighten the nut, you'll lock the entire unit.
    15.jpg 15a.jpg


    And we're finished.
    16.jpg 16a.jpg 16b.jpg

    As I said earlier, if you want to make the soft setting, just remove the sandwiched spring next to the battery, if you do it at this point, you'll need to remove the whole unit.
    17.jpg





    Here's a small video with the drop tests of this setup....so much better than the previous setup yesterday now that I've properly secured everything. Best played at about 0.5 speed to see the suspension working. Forgive the filming, I was trying to hold the tablet in a better angle to the last one.

     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  8. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Just wanted to say a big thanks to Orange for the inspiration on the above setup.....Also don't forget to check his thread before doing this.
     
  9. Chris Lee Design

    Chris Lee Design Aluminum Lock Nut

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    This is super cool mate! I don't think I've ever seen a suspension build like this, and that excites me. Well done. I really want to see this on a track already, I'm sure you do as well. Great job, I already have my next build set, but possibly after that I may give this a shot.
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Ugh...couldn't stop myself....after building it up yesterday, I figured it should at least be fully completed, even if that wasn't my intention.
    So here's a few pictures of it's completed form.

    20170518_202217.jpg 20170518_202233.jpg 20170518_202358.jpg 20170518_202410.jpg 20170518_202421.jpg 20170518_202434.jpg

    I believe it has about 1mm clearance, but I don't have the tool to check, might have to get one some time.
    Now it's got everything on (it didn't in the drop test video), it still lands the same with minimal to no bounce, I also found that the more uneven it landed, less it would bounce compared to perfectly flat landing. From what I've been able to work out, it does flex a little also when brakes pressing the brake.

    Anyway, I want my track, 2 cars ready for test runs already and 3rd in the works >.<;
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Quick update, just received my 2mm tap, short story:
    I ordered from one place and since I got no reply for like a week I figured maybe it didn't go through, so I ordered from a different place and on the same day that shipped, the other sent me 3 emails telling me order accepted, payment received and item shipped.....£20 in total so £10 wasted on a set that I didn't need.....ooops, oh well never mind.

    So I've just finished the wishbone and cups....well kinda, just need to trim down the screws...here's a quick couple pics.

    20170519_153133.jpg 20170519_153150.jpg 20170519_161308.jpg
     
  12. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    And another post, this time getting back to cutting parts for the full independent suspension.
    Where to start...hmmmm



    Ok, so this is what I've been working on today. If you notice the cut off roller sections of the bumper top right on the mat. You'll need at least 2 MS chassis or and MS chassis and a set of bumper units. I have the HG N/T-04 unit and I have to say, after trying to cut the roller sections off the bumper, I'm not looking forward to cutting them and preparing them for floating gear (Man they were tough:confused:)...Anyway, back to the post at hand.
    20170519_163354.jpg



    I began by cutting off the roller end sections of the bumper. Don't throw them away, will be needing them. 20170519_164422.jpg


    Here you can see that I've started to trim down the roller sections, these will be the upper and lower arms for the suspension. In the last image at the bottom of this post you'll see that I've finished cutting and trimming them to the needed shape, but these 2 images should show what you're looking to do. To finish them off, just need to go through each hole with a 2mm drill bit so the screws fit snug but not bite.
    20170519_170107.jpg 20170519_170943.jpg




    I'm soooooo glad I bought these from china, buying original tamiya would have cost a fortune! This is enough for 1 chip as you'll need to double them up to be the mounting point for the screws that hold the swing arms. In total you'll need 16.
    20170519_172002.jpg 20170519_172143.jpg



    As you can see, I've cut them all and sanded them down, I won't open these until I'm ready to mount them, but they will need a guide slot for the screws that will be sandwiched between them. I'll be doing that later.
    20170519_182326.jpg



    And finally here's where I end today. I did tap the spacers earlier in the previous post and before I finished today, I cut down the screws....given my tools, I really couldn't get the grub screws much smaller than this, even at this they're extremely difficult to screw in. I did strip a couple and had to redrill and tap the spacers from the other side, but as you can see, they're all good now.
    You can also see the final shape of the swing arms. Maybe tomorrow or another day sometime I will start with trimming the bumper units for the gear and if the parts have arrived, will get to making the pivot damper. For now, I think I deserve a break.
    20170519_194716.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  13. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Lazy day today... So I'll keep it simple and quick this time around.

    Just drilling the arm swing screw holding slots today and mounting some bearings on the wheel hub mount.
    Tried to make sure they were all drilled down the split between the pieces so that there would be a slot on both chip sections for holding the screws. If it's not level and drilled too far into one of the frps over the other, the weaker one will have to be mounted touching the chassis.
    20170520_173423.jpg


    As you can see in this image, the units come with 3 different wheel mount options.
    Option A will be the 620 ball bearing mount for the wheels, so these 4x parts will be used as the wheel hub mount and have the 520 bearings inserted where the swing arms will attach..
    Option B has the 520 ball bearing mount. these will be used for the gear positioning. We will be cutting these later, so need to make sure the correct parts are used for what....which is why I mounted the 520 bearing in the hub unit to make it easier to remember which to use.
    Option C will not be used. But will save them in case of finding a later use.
    20170520_173445.jpg

    Here are all the parts to be used, the top row are the 620 ball bearing wheel hub with 520's mounted for the swing arm,
    the bottom row are going to be cut for the gear positioning.
    20170520_173538.jpg


    You can tell the different sizes apart by looking at the face where the wheels would mount. The 520 mount has what looks like 2 plastic rings on the face, while the 620 does not.
    20170520_173611.jpg


    And that is all for today. I'll have a think over the process for the preparing the bumper units so I'll be confident in cutting and hopefully I won't screw up.
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    You know what....I figured I'd be a tease and show the chips to wet the appetite.


    20170520_200021.jpg

    I know I'm getting all excited about it, I can already see how to finish it!
    Whether I have all the right parts to do so, however, is another matter...
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Me again, went out for some dinner today, just got back and posting now, but earlier before I left I did do some more preparing.
    So here goes yet again.


    So I've decided to go ahead and prepare the chassis.
    1.jpg




    Going to begin by cutting out these areas, being careful not to cut into the post holes. I have to cut a little extra where the circle is due to the size of the grubs screws I'm using on the cups...

    2.jpg



    Also cutting these sections on the middle chassis to open up the swing arm area.
    The blue is yet again cutting off the battery holder tabs to allow more space for the frp.

    3.jpg



    Yep, knew this would happen since I'd modified it for the original build. It's ok, going to make some frp to put across the top of the posts to secure it anyway.

    3a.jpg 3b.jpg


    Might cut a couple more, will see how it looks when I build it first.

    3c.jpg



    So I've cut the sections out on the bumper units, I've also readied for stabilising the gear, If your doing this also, just prepare it how you like to do it.

    4.jpg



    Both the front and back axle mounts need cutting as shown. I've colour coded red and green to make it easier to identify in the following images.

    5.jpg


    The 2 red pieces will be glued onto their respective post holes. Makes sure to check you're placing the correct ring on the correct post hole. Same is done for both front and back units. Once it's dry, just trim it to match the section you cut earlier.

    6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg


    The main wheel ball bearing ring will be mounted to the bumpers (green ring from earlier). I've mounted ball bearings with axle to make it easier to position them on the bumper units. Make sure you are using strong glue/epoxy when mounting and get it into the cracks, but leave the inner section where the gear goes clean.

    9.jpg 10.jpg 11.jpg 12.jpg 13.jpg



    Just about finished preparing the parts I think, might need a few more things, will work it out later, will also need to clean up a few parts.

    14.jpg
     
  16. Chris Lee Design

    Chris Lee Design Aluminum Lock Nut

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    Keep up the good work! Next step is to use Tamiya parts only, this will make your build viable to everyone who races Tamiya regulation.
     
  17. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    This is tamiya only parts....well, if you have the money to buy so many side damper frp!
    Btw, more to come, gonna eat dinner first then make another long post.
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    I'll start by saying, up until now everything seemed to be going fine. But until you can start to assemble it, you won't begin to work out further problems. I've run into a few different things I hadn't thought about today, anyhow, time to get down to it.



    Putting the chassis together, I found I hadn't quite trimmed the chassis/bumper/rings enough. Easily rectified.
    20170522_154256.jpg


    I came to the realisation that I had to cut this section out, so essentially, the back and front gear cover are now free from the chassis and will placed back on the bumper.

    20170522_154308.jpg


    Alternatively, you could trim down the rings either before or after mounting (red line), If you do before you'll need to flatten on opposite sides of the ring, if after then trim flat the top extra. The yellow line indicates part of the ring I had to trim so the bumper could slot into the middle chassis as otherwise it won't fit snug due to wall around the slot area of the counter gear.

    20170522_154334.jpg


    Next I trimmed these little pegs off the top of the gear cover, so everything will be level.

    20170522_155403.jpg 20170522_155410.jpg



    After trimming, I decided to begin on figuring out the axle. I used some stock axle and marked where I needed to cut once I roughly positioned everything where I needed it.

    20170522_163357.jpg 20170522_170416.jpg


    The axle came out nearly perfect in size, just had to use a couple extra small washes to pad the space between the bearing spacer and cups. At this point I also chose to trim down the grub screws as much as I possibly could. This lead to multiple issues including dethreading the cups which had to be redrilled, so far ruined 4 spacers before I was able to get 4 to screw tightly onto the axle. I tempted at a much later date to go back and solder the cups on. For now though I'll soldier on to see if these spacers will be strong enough to drive the wheels before stripping and rebuilding.

    20170522_173724.jpg 20170522_181623.jpg


    Finally got around to beginning the swing arm mounts. You can also see the size of the grub. I've temp fitted the swing arm before this to test clearances and it appears to be fine, so I'll go ahead with this. The build up, goes like this, starting from below.

    Screw - Chip half - 1.5mm spacer (frp/alu/plastic gear bearing) - Chip half - chassis - nut - washer - spring washer - chip half - 1.5mm spacer - chip half - frp reinforcement - nut.

    I had to build it up a little taller than I initially planned, but the front end is still very solid. Back end is done the same. I will need to mount a small frp plate later to mount spring shaft. I'll probably do that on the inner chassis screw.

    20170522_195946.jpg 20170522_195957.jpg 20170522_200009.jpg

    Both sides done.

    20170522_202644.jpg 20170522_202652.jpg 20170522_202659.jpg


    Will need to trim the frp a little and maybe trim the shell to fit, but I'm loving the look right now.

    20170522_203919.jpg 20170522_203925.jpg

    Getting super excited!
     
  19. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    That feeling when things really don't go as planned.... Well most of it did, but now I'm getting towards the end, I'm noticing a couple things not quite right. I'll talk about that at the bottom, but for now, a few more pictures.



    I spent last night attaching the swing arms after the last post. Then today I started by trimming the shell a little so it would fit. I'm quite happy with how that has turned out, it also hides all the structure nicely. Swing arm mounting is pretty self explanatory from looking at the photos. I will need to rework bits and put more washes in the stabilise everything, but I'll need to tear it down again first.
    20170523_153118.jpg 20170523_153239.jpg 20170523_153254.jpg 20170523_153311.jpg


    So I was going to use this for the rear wheels, but after assembling, I came to a realisation that this part is just too long. I've also come to realise that I will need the wide wheel mounts in order to stabilise the wheels properly. Using a slim ring like below allowed the wheel to wobble far too much.

    20170523_162757.jpg


    Turns out I'll need option C after all.

    20170523_162809.jpg



    Here's a current mock build up. I did have it running, tweaked the cups and wishbone a little and run it again and it's working great albeit with 1 significant hiccup....the grub screw idea just does not work very well and after a short while, the cups come loose or flying off and if you over tighten the grub, you run the risk of stripping the thread. So I'm going to tear it down and solder the cups to the axles. Not the most ideal solution. But for a first time attempt at build a full indy, it's good to experiment.

    20170523_170627.jpg


    Will have to trim a little off the wheel attachment or it will be far too wide.

    20170523_185321.jpg 20170523_185337.jpg




    So in short, I'm stuck here until I order a few new parts and a new solder iron. And it seems I have gone and wasted all those spacers. Well kinda....they work great as cups, not so great at being used like a shaft stopper o_O
    Anyway, by the time of writing this, I've ordered the new parts I think I need, but until then I'll be taking a break from this build, unless I get the parts for the pivot damper I ordered a couple weeks back then I'll post that.
     
  20. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Since I was removing the swing arms for modifying the drive train, I decided to attach the universal joints I posted near the top of the thread to see what would happen.



    I only attached the wheel hub to a static mount to test, not using a full set up, it's just a proof of concept and see what I'd need to do if I was to build it. I'm very tempted to, the shocks would need to mounted angled, maybe about 20 degrees, much like this....
    ftx5532wp.jpg

    Will need more money first....:(
     
    zerosc likes this.

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